The Quiet One

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Posts by The Quiet One

• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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  The Quiet One

  WASBLIND SAID: "Quiet One, the reason the WTS changed their stance on the generation is because they don't even believe the stuff they write" - I am glad that you, and others like you, have the ability to read peoples minds and to know their motivations.. It must make life a lot easier. JWFACTS - Please consider this.. Moses was a prophet. He represented Jehovah, but he made mistakes. Even so, when Korah and the people with him decided that Moses had no right to lead them, seeing as he was an imperfect man whose leadership could not have been without times when he made mistakes, (if Moses was perfect as a spirit directed ruler, or it was undeniable that he was appointed by God, why would hundreds of people be dumb enough to fight with God?) he seemed to be no better than anyone else.. Korah was destroyed for openly challenging the right of an imperfect man to rule over other imperfect people, even as a prophet of Jehovah. He judged Gods choice of leader, or seemingly didn't believe that Moses was appointed by God just because he didn't think that Moses alone, or possibly anyone, would be Gods favoured person to lead his people.. ('all the men are holy' and 'why should you lift yourself up' at least implies that he didn't view Moses as the clear choice of ruler that God would make). He was wrong, God had chosen an imperfect leader.. More importantly though, look at how David acted, and he was also an appointed leader of God. I won't patronise you by listing all of the serious sins he committed, including adultery and showing a total lack of faith in God by numbering the Israelites, both of which he should have known not to do.. As the WT should have known not to build peoples hopes up by unscripturally promoting a specific year that they thought was fitting for the world to end in, such as in 1975, although they did publish cautionary statements that it wasn't definite.. but they did say that it might happen alongside the general over-hyping of that specific year.. and the changing doctrines, lets be honest, most likely were not deliberately planned out as part of some evil scheme to benefit themselves, considering the trouble and losses such changes have caused.. But if you want to think that these mistakes that the WT has made are worse than all the terrible things that David did, be my guest. Remember that many people suffered, and even died for Davids various errors.. but God STILL used him as a leader. Any assumption that you make that the WT deliberately manipulates people to its own ends rather than simply makes mistakes, without evidence to PROVE that they manipulate people on purpose, is just that.. an assumption. David, as stated in the Bible, deliberately committed serious sins that hurt people, and that he knew would hurt people as he plotted them, as in the case of Bathsheba. A prediction, without the claim that something will definitely happen.. where the person even admits it might not happen, and that the person has not claimed that God will do this , is not a false prophecy. It was, IMO, at worst a costly mistake.. unless you can prove that it was some kind of deliberate ploy to lose members by the thousands and be labeled as a false prophet? And finally, a prophet does not have to be perfect in word or deed, as clearly shown by David, who was both a prophet of God and an appointed leader.. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_king_David_a_prophet
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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  The Quiet One

  Fatfreek- Your post was quite funny, I have to admit. I hit the post button too rapidly and couldn't go back and delete the ignorant sentence that I'd typed out without checking up the year that MNLWND was printed. Even the Proclaimers book admits that was a mistake.. I deserved to be mocked for that.. Back on topic, though.. Nobody has denied yet that a generation CAN mean a group of contemporaries, as is clearly stated in the dictionary.. And if it can, the 'generation' has not yet passed away. Unless someone can conclusively disprove this definition? Therefore, with certain doctrines/interpretations that were in need of refinement/correction not being relevant to the scriptural test of a false prophet, as I have shown by explaining that a prophet does not have to be infallible at all times and can make mistakes.. and bearing in mind that the WT has never prophesied about the future in Gods name, there isn't any evidence to convict the WT of being a false prophet based on the Bible.. I think that this is the only thing left that I can add to the topic, thanks to ALL for at least listening --- Here is a line of reasoning regarding the idea of overlapping groups being considered as a generation: "If you have a specific event, then the 'generation' of that event includes everyone who knows, spoke to or was alive at the same time as the eye-witnesses of that event. That could include people who were not yet born when the event occurred but were born 'into' the generation that witnessed it. They are all part of that 'generation'. They (the GB) mention Joseph and the Bible talks about all the generation who went into Egypt with him passing away. But that 'generation' included people who knew Joseph but who were born after he came to Egypt. His children, for instance. That 'generation' basically included everyone who was alive at the same time as those who witnesses Israel going into Egypt. They were contemporaries." http://m.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-witness/TGOUI0PO1QOTU30HL
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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  The Quiet One

  That last sentence of my last post should be ignored, I couldn't edit it.. MNLWND was a false interpretation, not a prophecy in the name of God.
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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  The Quiet One

  Outlaw, LisaBO, Leaving Wt, Outsmartthesystem ,Knowsnothing - The generation that saw 1914, taking into account the new understanding of an overlapping generation being a better interpretation, hasn't passed away yet. If it does, then the WT will have been proven to be a false prophet. Here's the explanation in brief.. "Let's go back to Revelation 6 ... notice as we read 9 through 11... [reads]. So here, the Scriptures are describing two parts of the same group whose lives would overlap..like Revelation, the generation that Jesus was referring to also consists of two groups of people whose lives would overlap. Group 1 of this generation discerned the sign ofChrist's presence in 1914. But they weren't merely born in 1914 nor merely alive to witness the start of Christ's presence. They were spirit-anointed in or before 1914. Therefore, the generation Jesus referred to saw the start of the last days. The second group are those thatwill see the end of this system of things. As the first group grew older, the second group started to be born so that for a while the two groups overlapped one another - they were contemporaries of one another." For full transcript, see: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/211265/1/Overlapping-generation-explanation-TRANSCRIBED-EXTRACT-from-Fridays-talk-DC-2011-12 Generation b : a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously c : a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status (as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generation This definition from merriam-webster could clearly apply. If you can't disprove that it is a possibility that generation could have meant people living contemperaneously, as in a school, you cannot prove that the WT is a false prophet by saying that the 'this generation will not pass away', as applied to 1914, prophecy has failed.. And 'millions now living will never die' could still apply if the end comes soon.
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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• 

  The Quiet One

  "We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them"-Zion's Watch Tower, January 1, 1908 (reprint) page 4110 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians havelooked forward to this year. Manyhave confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year."- The Watch Tower, January 1, 1925, page 3 -- Nothing like Campings predictions..
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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• 

  The Quiet One

  Oct 15 1913, pg. 303-307 "The date 1914 is not an arbitrary date; it is merely what the chronology of the Scriptures seems to teach. We have never said positively that the Scriptures do so teach--that the Jewish favor will begin exactly at that time, or that the Gentile times will end exacly at that time. We say that according to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time--whether it be October, 1914, or later."
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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• 

  The Quiet One

  Harold camping made predictions without saying that he could be wrong. He claimed to be inspired, and he stated them as though it were a fact that they would come true. "Camping has preached that some200 million people would be saved, and that those left behind would die in a series of scourges visiting Earth until the globe is consumed by a fireball on October 21. Family Radio International's message has been broadcast in 61 languages. He has said that his earlier apocalyptic prediction in 1994 didn't come true because of a mathematical error. 'I'm not embarrassed about it. It was just the fact that it was premature,' he told The Associated Press last month. But this time, he said, 'there is ... no possibility that it will not happen'." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390268/Rapture-Harold-Camping-explains-wrong--says-God-bring-Rapture-OCTOBER-21.html
• 
  179

  The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

  but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

  that would clearly have been a mistake.

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  3. 
• 

  The Quiet One

  Regarding what some have said here about the WT being a false prophet.. I would like to make my point regarding the WT not being a false prophet... So please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what I am getting at.. A false prophet is one who, according to Deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from God, or in other words claiming that 'God has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. For example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "God will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously. But, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of God, (as Moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. He was still a prophet or spokesman for God) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of Isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that God WILL end the world in that year.. but only that there was Biblical evidence that God might do so. That would clearly have been a mistake. He shouldn't have promoted a theory so strongly about a specific year, because the Bible doesn't tell you exactly when it (the end of the world) will happen.. only that it will, and that people need to be warned. But who doesn't make mistakes (even ones that are costly or embarassing) ? Moses certainly did. The person in my example did not give a prophecy of the future, did he? He promoted an interpretation of a Bible prophecy (to relate this to 1975, the Bible prophesies that their will be a 'great day of God the Almighty' at the end of the last days, although we don't know when, so it was admittedly a mistake to even guess when the prophecy will be fulfilled) that turned out to be wrong, but he didn't prophesy that 'God WILL end the world in 2010', did he? He promoted an incorrect interpretation of a prophecy, and even if people had decided to sell their homes because they respected him and chose to listen to his Biblical views in the past, despite his statements being a (perhaps over-hyped) theory which was accompanied by NO claims that God had SAID it or God WOULD do it.. Be honest, would any of this PROVE that the man was a false prophet according to the Bibles definition? (which should be the only definition considering that the Bible is the source from which you take the label of 'false prophet' and apply it to the WT) Again, the Bibles definition is that a 'false prophet' is one who makes a false prophecy/prediction of the future in Gods name, in other words telling people that 'God will do this at this time' ? Couldn't the man in my example have been, in theory, a prophet of God who didn't make a future prophecy.. but gave a mistaken interpretation OF a future prophecy that someone else wrote? Remember, Moses acted as Gods leader and spokesman, didn't he? Did he claim that everything that he did and said was directly from God, or infallible? He didn't, and he could not have claimed this.. And neither does the WT. Did Moses make mistakes? So have the WT. Can you prove that the WT made a false prophecy in Gods name.. rather than mistakenly promoting a theory regarding the Biblical prophecy of the end of the world, with a disclaimer making it clear that God has not told them that He will do this, even stating they are not saying that He will (Watchtower 1966 October 15 pp.629,631) , a theory that they perhaps should not have promoted as strongly? Or maybe God was wrong to appoint prophets such as Moses, who don't prophesy about the future in His name, but do make mistakes.. I await the attacks on my character and intelligience for daring to present an opposing viewpoint with bated breath, and I will not respond to anything, as this is all I can say.. Finally, many thanks to IRONDORK for pointing out that there is, Biblically, more than onekind of prophet. You do NOT have to make a prophecy that God will do something in the future to be a prophet. Moses didn't prophesy, but he was a prophet. This IS relevant, because to simply say: WT says they are a prophet + they gave a mistaken interpretation of a Bible prophecy = they're a false prophet... would be a logical fallacy. A person can be a prophet (or messenger of God) and have a mistaken view of a prophecy, without having prophesied about the future or claimed that the prediction came from God. If you do NOT make a prophecy of the future and claim that God said it, you CANNOT be a 'false prophet' according to the Bible. The Biblical criteria of a 'false prophet' thus cannot be applied to the WT. PROVE ME WRONG, if you can... Goodbye and thanks for listening :)
• 
  59

  THE WATCHTOWER SAY'S THEY ARE / ARE NOT INSPIRED

  by wasblind in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  " if any ...organization claim to represent god, but decline to use god's.

  personal name....are they measuring up to this important qualification.

  of a true prophet?

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• 

  The Quiet One

  Regarding what some have said here about the WT being a false prophet.. I would like to make my point regarding the WT not being a false prophet one last time.. So please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what I am getting at.. A false prophet is one who, according to Deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from God, or in other words claiming that 'God has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. For example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "God will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously. But, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of God, (as Moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. He was still a prophet or spokesman for God) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of Isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that God WILL end the world in that year.. but only that there was Biblical evidence that God might do so. That would clearly have been a mistake. He shouldn't have promoted a theory so strongly about a specific year, because the Bible doesn't tell you exactly when it (the end of the world) will happen.. But who doesn't make mistakes (even ones that are costly or embarassing) ? Moses certainly did. The person in my example did not give a prophecy of the future, did he? He promoted an interpretation of a Bible prophecy (to relate this to 1975, the Bible prophesies that their will be a 'great day of God the Almighty' at the end of the last days, although we don't know when, so it was a mistake to even guess when the prophecy will be fulfilled) that turned out to be wrong, but he didn't prophesy that 'God WILL end the world in 2010', did he? He promoted an incorrect interpretation of a prophecy, and even if people had decided to sell their homes because they respected him and chose to listen to his Biblical views in the past, despite his statements being a (perhaps over-hyped) theory which was accompanied by NO claims that God had SAID it or God WOULD do it.. Be honest, would any of this PROVE that the man was a false prophet according to the Bibles definition? (which should be the only definition considering that the Bible is the source from which you take the label of 'false prophet' and apply it to the WT) Again, the Bibles definition is that a 'false prophet' is one who makes a false prophecy/prediction of the future in Gods name, in other words telling people 'God will do this at this time' ? Couldn't the man in my example have been, in theory, a prophet of God who didn't make a future prophecy.. but gave a mistaken interpretation OF a future prophecy that someone else wrote? Remember, Moses acted as Gods leader and spokesman, didn't he? Did he claim that everything that he did and said was directly from God, or infallible? He didn't, and he could not have claimed this.. And neither does the WT. Did Moses make mistakes? So have the WT. Can you prove that the WT made a false prophecy in Gods name, rather than mistakenly promoting a theory regarding the Biblical prophecy of the end of the world, with a disclaimer that God has not told them this (Watchtower 1966 October 15 pp.629,631) , a theory that they perhaps should not have promoted as strongly? Or maybe God was wrong to appoint prophets such as Moses, who don't prophesy about the future in His name but make mistakes.. I await the attacks on my character and intelligience for daring to present an opposing viewpoint with bated breath, and I will not respond to anything, as this is all I can say.. Finally, many thanks to IRONDORK for pointing out that there is, Biblically, more than one kind of prophet. You do NOT have to make a prophecy that God will do something in the future to be a prophet. Moses didn't prophesy, but he was a prophet. This IS relevant, because to simply say: WT says they are a prophet + they gave a mistaken interpretation of a Bible prophecy = they're a false prophet... is a logical fallacy. A person can be a prophet (or messenger of God) and have a mistaken view of a prophecy, without having prophesied about the future or claimed that the prediction came from God. If you do NOT make a prophecy of the future and claim that God said it, you CANNOT be a 'false prophet' according to the Bible. The Biblical criteria of a 'false prophet' thus cannot be applied to the WT. PROVE ME WRONG, if you can... Goodbye and thanks for listening :)
• 
  59

  THE WATCHTOWER SAY'S THEY ARE / ARE NOT INSPIRED

  by wasblind in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  " if any ...organization claim to represent god, but decline to use god's.

  personal name....are they measuring up to this important qualification.

  of a true prophet?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  The Quiet One

  No need, I'm done. Thanks to wasblind for listening, and to Cedars for replying. As a final point, I was not saying that wilful nonsupport is equal to violence.